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- By Richard Smith
- Updated: October 22, 2012
Within a wide field of well-designed and competitive racer/cruisers of the 1970s, the S2 9.2 stands out, mainly because it wears its age very well. Without a scoop transom and boarding steps or skinny portlights below the sheer, it still looks modern. The flat sheer, sloping deckhouse, almost-flush Lexan forward hatch, hinged anchor lid, and tinted deadlights are familiar features on boats built three decades later. The carefully detailed teak handrails set on molded fiberglass spacers are unobtrusive while emphasizing the hull’s refined shape and unified design. Nothing is exaggerated in the interest of the fashions of the day or to suit a rating rule.
Powerboat builder Leon R. Slikkers founded S2 Yachts in 1974 and commissioned Arthur Edmonds, designer of the Allied Princess 36 and Mistress 39, to design the S2 9.2A (for its aft cockpit) and the S2 9.2C (for its center cockpit). Over 700 A and C models were sold. Both versions have the same hull, fin keel, partially balanced skeg-hung rudder, and masthead sloop rig. The single-spreader aluminum mast, painted black (an S2 trademark) is stepped on deck over a compression post that’s built into the main bulkhead.
The hull is solid, hand-laid fiberglass. It has an inward-turning flange at the sheer to which the balsa-cored deck is bolted through an extruded aluminum toerail. There’s no molded interior liner. Bulkheads and furniture are tabbed to the hull, which contributes to its structural stiffness. Two tons of lead ballast is encapsulated in a sealed keel cavity. Well-cared-for boats show little wear and tear after three decades of hard sailing, and, owners agree, the gelcoat is generally free of stress cracks even where moldings take tight bends.
The T-shaped cockpit is comfortable and workmanlike. The starboard seat opens to general storage and access to the stuffing box and engine controls. Additional storage is located under the helmsman’s seat in twin lazarettes.
Everything on deck is carefully laid out. The mainsail is sheeted abaft the 28-inch wheel, where it’s out of the way but in reach of the helmsman. The 8-inch stern cleats are mounted on anti-chafing pads and close to hand. Engine controls are similarly convenient to the helm. Early boats had Atomic 4s, but a variety of diesel engines were fitted after 1978.
The engine box provides a wide first step down to the cabin. A small corner galley to starboard of the companionway contains a sink, icebox, and stove. Opposite is a quarter berth and navigation space with a folding seat and table. Headroom is 6 feet 3 inches aft and drops gradually to about 5 feet 10 inches toward the forward cabin.
The saloon table and settee convert to a double berth and, together with a 6-foot-6-inch settee opposite, make a comfortable eating, lounging, and sleeping area. A double berth is located forward of the wardrobe and head area. Generous use of teak, both solid and ply, contributes to a sense of quality throughout the boat, but the polypropylene carpeting used to line the hull ages unattractively.
Sailing the S2 9.2 is a treat. In 15 to 17 knots, it heels sharply under the mainsail and 150-percent genoa before settling in to make 5 or 6 knots upwind. Weather helm is noticeable in stronger gusts, but the boat is generally well balanced and always manageable, even in lumpy seas. All in all, the S2 9.2 is a well-designed, tough, and able 30-footer with good performance for racing or cruising.
Architect Richard Smith and his wife, Beth, sail their Ericson Cruising 31, Kuma, in the Pacific Northwest.
Find more Cruising World boat reviews here . Read the review of the S2 8.6 here .
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- Sailboat Reviews
A fast boat targeted at a variety of sailors, the 7.9 makes a good racer, but not a cruiser.
After Leon Slikkers sold Slickcraft, his powerboat company, in the early 1970’s, he built a sailboat factory the way a sailboat factory should be built. The result was S2 yachts and a factory quite in contrast to the normal dingy warehouse with blobbed polyester resin hardened on rough concrete floors.
Originally known for cruising designs, S2 Yachts opened their second decade in business by entering the high performance field, building first a trailerable racer/cruiser, the S2 7.9. The 7.9 stands for meters, which translates into American as 25′ 11″. The boat stayed in production up until S2 shut down its sailboat operations in 1986.
Designed by the Chicago-based naval architects Scott Graham and Eric Schlageter, the 7.9 was the first in a series of competitive production boats. The series was originally called “Grand Slam,” but the company later dropped the designation. With over 400 built between the boat’s introduction in 1982 and 1986, the 7.9 was relatively successful during a time when few boats in its size range were selling.
The 7.9 was a pricey boat for her size. Equipped with sail handling gear, four sails (main, jib, genoa, and spinnaker), outboard motor, speedo, and compass, her 1985 price was about $27,000. For comparison, a comparably equipped J/24 of the time would run you around $21,000, an Olson 25 about $22,000. Add an inboard engine, a trailer, and miscellaneous gear and you could easily have dropped $36,000 on the 7.9—a hefty tab for a 26′ boat.
Construction
The hull and deck of the 7.9 are hand-laid fiberglass, cored with end-grain balsa. S2 bragged about its glasswork, and the company had a high reputation in the industry for both its gelcoat and its hand layup.
Beginning somewhere around hull number 400, S2 switched from conventional polyester resin to a modified epoxy resin—AME 4000. The company claimed the epoxy resin is stronger, lighter, and less subject to blistering.
The hull is fair with no bumps or hard spots evident—probably the result of the company’s practice of installing most of the interior before removing the hull from its mold. The gelcoat appears to be thicker than is usual in production boats—a good
feature since minor scratches and dings can be “rubbed out” without penetrating to the laminate.
For their standard hull-to-deck joint, S2 used an inward turning flange onto which the deck molding is set—a desirable design, especially when bedded in flexible adhesive (such as 3M 5200) and through bolted at close intervals. However on the 7.9, rather than being through bolted, the deck is mechanically fastened to the hull only with screws through the slotted aluminum toerail, a detail that indicates the boat is not intended for heavy-duty offshore work.
The boat came with a one-design package of good quality deck hardware. All hardware is through bolted, with stainless backing plates on the lifeline stanchions but with only washers and nuts on all other hardware. This would seem to be problematic with the balsa core, but we have heard no reports of problems so far.
Although the company offered the boat in a fixed keel version, the vast majority of boats have a lead ballasted daggerboard.
The advantages of a daggerboard are, first, that it retracts to be flush with the bottom of the hull to make the boat trailer launchable, second, that you can float the boat in a mere 13″ of water (though she will have no directional control with the board totally up—you’ll need at least a foot of board showing for control under sail or power), and, third, with the board totally down, the boat has a 5′ deep hydrodynamically efficient keel, a depth that would be extreme on a fixed-keel boat this size.
The disadvantage of the daggerboard will come in a hard grounding. Whereas a centerboard would kick out of the way, the board is likely to bash around a bit in its trunk. A nice detail by S2 is that the bottom opening of the trunk is surrounded by a strong weldment which will mitigate the potential damage to the hull from a grounding. Another potential disadvantage is that, on many boats, the daggerboard trunk messes up the interior, but the designers have done a good job on the 7.9, incorporating the daggerboard into a centerline bulkhead.
Nearly a third of the 1,750 pounds ballast is in the board, with the remaining two-thirds glassed to the interior of the hull. When the board is fully lowered, it fits snugly in a V-Shaped crotch—a good design detail—but when it’s raised out of the V using the three-part tackle and winch, it will bang about loosely in the daggerboard trunk. There is no way to pin the board down—an obvious potential problem in severe conditions.
The boat, however, has passed the MORC self-righting test with the daggerboard in the fully raised position. In the test, the mast-head is hove down to the water, the bagged mainsail and genoa are tied to the masthead, and the whole shebang released. This is not a test of ultimate stability, since other boats which passed the test have turtled and sunk, but it is reassuring. However, the design is clearly dependent mostly on its beamy hull form for righting and not on its ballast—another indication the boat is intended for close-to-shore sailing.
The transom-hung rudder—pivoted for trailering—is of foam-cored fiberglass (the foam gives it neutral bouyancy in water). We like the idea of a transomhung rudder: it’s accessible for inspection and service, it lessens the potential damage to the hull that can occur when a rudder smashes into something, and it gets the rudder farther away from the keel to give the tiller a more responsive feel.
The fractional rig—with mast and boom made by Offshore Spars—is dinghy-like, having swept-back spreaders which make the upper shrouds function as backstays. The actual backstay does virtually nothing to support the rig; instead, its primary function is to bend the mast to control mainsail performance. Although the mast is easily bendable, it’s a surprisingly heavy section for a modern racing rig—it’s also untapered. Everything is internal in the mast and boom, with all lines eventually coming back to the cockpit in typical modern racing style.
Upper and lower shrouds attach to inboard chainplates. The starboard chainplate is attached to a well bonded plywood bulkhead, but the port chainplate is longer, attached to the fiberglass structure which forms the front edge of the galley. Since there is a 2′ “free span” of unsupported chainplate between the galley and deck, the chainplate in the highly-loaded rig works a lot, and one of the most common owner complaints about the boat is the leaking port chainplate that results.
A fiberglass floorpan makes up the berths, floor, and galley area. Instead of a ceiling, S2 uses carpeting for interior covering of the hull. One good detail about the carpeting is that Velcro will stick to it—you can hang anything anywhere—but we have to wonder how the carpet will stand up to salt accumulation. There is virtually no bilge, so water inside will turn everything soggy.
Generally, the boat is well constructed, with good detail work and hardware. While we believe that every “racer-cruiser” should be designed and built to handle extreme conditions offshore, the hull shape, the daggerboard design, and the hull-to-deck joint show us that S2 did not intend for this boat to be involved in those extremes.
Handling Under Power
The standard 7.9 is be outboard powered. The option was a BMW 7.5 hp one-lung diesel with the shockingly high price tag of $5400 new. When BMW got out of the marine business, S2 offered the boat with the 7.5 hp Yanmar.
The little diesel handles the boat well, though owners report that it will not punch through a heavy headsea. This is probably more the result of the folding Martec prop which comes as part of the inboard package rather than any lack of power in the engine.
The inboard installation is well done. The ply-wood stringers glassed to the hull support vibration-damping mounts for the engine. Standard installation includes a stainless steel eight gallon fuel tank, properly grounded, a heavy duty Purolator filter/water-separator, a waterlift muffler, and single-lever shift/throttle controls.
Both the fuel shut off and the fuel filter are difficult to get to—through an inspection port in the port quarterberth—but access to the engine is otherwise good, with hinged companionway steps opening out of the way so dipstick, decompression switch, engine controls, water pump are easy to get at. For more serious work on the engine, the quarterberth panels are removable for virtually total access. One good feature of the BMW is that it is the one engine we’ve ever seen that is actually easy to start by hand cranking. It made S2’s one-battery installation workable. With the Yanmar, owners may want to look for a place to stow a second battery; offhand, there’s no obviously good location.
As you might expect on a 4400 pound boat, the outboard is minimally adequate except for backing up and except in any wind or sea conditions. We would normally recommend the inboard for the 7.9, but there is a problem—the underwater drag of the shaft, strut, and propeller—an important consideration for the racer.
Our conclusion is that the serious racer should probably look for the outboard model and just suffer the poor performance under power. If you will be primarily daysailing, weekending, and cruising, we recommend the inboard.
If you’re planning a combination of racing and cruising, you’ll just have to make a judgment which aspect you want to emphasize.
Handling Under Sail
The 7.9 is a proven performer under sail, being not only a fast boat for her size but also competitive in handicap racing under MORC and PHRF. Her PHRF rating of 168 says that she’s about the same speed as the J/24, Merit 25, and similar current racing boats, and about the same speed as such older racer-cruisers as the Pearson 30, Cal 34, Catalina 30 tall rig, or Irwin 30.
With her narrow entry forward, a big fat rear end, and a fractional rig with most of the power in the mainsail, she will be better behaved than her high-performance cousins designed to the IOR rule. Owners report that her one bad habit is to wipe out in heavy puffs when beating.
Her dinghy-shaped hull means she’ll have to be sailed flat for best performance, which in turn means lots of lard on the rail when the wind pipes up. Five people, the heavier the better, is de rigueur for heavy air racing.
For daysailing and cruising, she’s got plenty of reefable sail area, and she should perform well with the four standard class sails: main, 155% genoa, 105% jib, and spinnaker.
Peak performance will take lots of tweaking and fiddling with the rig. This will be no problem for the high-performance dinghy sailor graduating to a cruising boat, but it will take a lot of learning about mastbend and sail shape for the newcomer. Nonetheless, even when not tuned to perfection, she should perform well enough to be a pleasant daysailer for the weekend hacker.
Deck Layout
The 7.9’s inboard shrouds, wide decks, and big cockpit will make for pleasant moving about on deck. The nonskid is good—among the best we’ve seen in a production boat. It will remove skin from bare knuckles.
The boat will be sailed from the cockpit, and she’s well laid out for sail handling. The primary winches are, if anything, oversize—a true rarity these days—and the secondary winches on the cabin top are adequate for halyard and spinnaker work. (Note, though, that the lead daggerboard is raised and lowered using the starboard secondary winch. One of our readers reports blowing up the winch; another says, “The #16 winch is inadequate for a woman or small man to handle the board.”)
Like the J/24 and other performance boats, the helmsman and crew will sit on the deck rather than in the cockpit when racing. However, unlike the J/24, the 7.9 does have a true cockpit, and it’s comfortable. The seat bottoms are slightly concave, the seat backs are nearly a foot high and contoured to support the small of the back, and seat-to-sole distance gives comfortable leg room. The mainsheet traveler is smack in the middle of the cockpit and will prove a shin ravager until you get used to it. But, the cockpit will comfortably daysail six and drink eight at dockside and is definitely a strong point for the boat.
There are two substantial cockpit lockers for stowage. Several owners report that the lockers leak—a nuisance in what appears to be an otherwise dry boat.
As one owner puts it, “The interior does the best it can.” With about 5′ 4″ headroom, the cabin will require stooping for most people. Still, we admire S2’s restraint—they could have easily added 6″ to the doghouse to get “standing” headroom. And to get a boat that would be as ugly as some of their early cruising models.
S2 was not suckered by the how-many-does-shesleep syndrome for this model. Both quarterberths are long and wide, and the forward V-berth is truly sleepable with the boat dockside or at anchor. The only drawback to the arrangements is that the space between berth and side decks is so short that sitting upright will be uncomfortable for anyone over 6′.
The galley (or, more accurately, the galley area) is absolutely minimal, with a shallow sink and small icebox. There’s a tiny counter area—either for counterspace or for a one-burner alcohol stove—but anyone wanting to weekend or cruise with more than PB&J’s will have to revamp the galley.
The daggerboard trunk is well disguised, forming one wall of the head. The head itself is cramped, to say the least—you can sit on the Porta Potti, but your knees will stick out through the privacy curtain. Still, the head location is preferable to the all-too common position under the V-berth.
Ventilation below is nonexistent. Opening ports were available as options. A small quarterberth opening port or a forepeak vent would be desirable. Compared to a larger boat’s “yacht” finish or even to a 25′ cruising boat, the 7.9’s interior will seem plain and functional.
On the other hand, it’s luxurious compared to a J/24, J/27, Merit 25, or Evelyn 26. The boat can be weekended in comfort. If you can stand camping out, the boat can even be cruised.
Trailerability
With a 9′ beam, the 7.9 is not legally trailerable in any state without special wide-load permits. Yet most of the boats have been sold with trailers, and the company boasts of its trailerability and easy launchability. How is this possible?
The consensus is that, with the daggerboard retracted, the boat sits so low on the trailer that it doesn’t look that wide. A keelboat on a trailer—a Merit 25, for example—looks much bigger and a bored cop is more likely to stop and measure a keelboat than a 7.9. At any rate, 7.9s are trailered, and we know of none ever being ticketed or, for that matter, even questioned.
Conclusions
S2 did a good job of aiming the boat at a variety of sailors: racers, daysailors, and weekenders.
For racers interested in a one-design boat, the class is not strong outside the Great Lakes. But for the sailor into handicap racing, the boat seems a good possibility. It’s definitely competitive in MORC and PHRF fleets. And unlike other high-performance boats its size—the Olson 25, J/24, Merit 25, Evelyn 26, or Capri 25—the 7.9 is a boat you could stand sleeping aboard or taking on a rainy overnight race.
For the sailor primarily interested in daysailing and weekending, the 7.9 will also be worth serious consideration. She is definitely on the pricey side for 26′ boats, but her quality construction and equipment are what you get for the extra money. She may be a little on the high-performance side for the real novice, but her four-sail class package should be fairly easy to handle even for the newcomer.
We really could not recommend her as a cruiser. Well, maybe as a pocket cruiser. S2 clearly didn’t intend her for cruising or offshore sailing; still, she’s well made, a fast boat, and maybe if our seamanship were good enough…but no, if it’s a fast cruiser we’d like at 25′ to 26′, we’ll keep looking.
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I'm Looking at a S2 9.2c and was wondering if anyone had any comments about the boat Im was told it is a blue water cap. just looking for some opinions Thanks
Love this boat i have had my 9.2c since 2002 and have lived aboard since 2004. i love this boat. i'm just at the tail end of a complete refit. the boat wasn't that rough, but one thing led to another. if i can be of any assistance, let me know. my email is [email protected]
What? What is blue water cap? *o
What? Blue Water Capable
Robert August
great boat I bought my '78 9.2c back in April and have lived aboard since September. I found that the room below compares to boats that are larger (35 footers generally) and the large double berth was the thing that really sealed the deal. Since I've been aboard several months now and have gotten into the various systems I've found S2's original work to be of high quality, though some of what had been done in the intervening years has not lived up to that. For being a relatively short center cockpit boat with a bit of windage she seems to be a fair sailer, dry and great with the wind on her beam (Had a great sail down Colvos passage when moving Puffin from Seattle to Olympia) Overall I feel lucky to have found this boat at this time in my life. Rob August S/V Puffin Olympia, WA
Portlight replacements Mike, Any ideas or detailed information on replacement of portlights?
Portlight S2 9.2A Ports I replaced the ports in my S2 9.2A with 1/4" Bronze Tinted Plexiglas. I was told that Plexiglas was more resistant to crazing than Lexan. The S2 site says to use sealant to bed the windows, but I used Glazer's Tape instead. It's a neoprene tape with glue on both sides, it's not as messy as sealant and seems to be working just fine. I used 1/8" thick tape, but I think 1/16" might work better. The ports are also through bolted to the structure. There, I used SS screws into SS Tee Nuts that I got at Fisheries Supply in Seattle. They should be available in LA also. No leaks in almost three years. I wrote a longer post on this subject 1-2 years ago, don't remember exactly when, it might be in the archives.
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S2. SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more! Filters. 1 1 of 4 4.
The 9.2C and A should have similar sail characteristics - we really like how ours handles. If you can get past the looks of the center cockpit I am guessing you will like what she offers on the water and below decks for living space. S2 certainly seemed to get the most out of the space on these boats.
515. Catalina C25 3559 Rocky Mount. Nov 25, 2020. #1. I am going to look at a 1984 s2 9.2 tomorrow. Boat was used for 2 seasons, then stored indoors until 2008. It has sat tied to a dock (fresh water) and only sailed 2 times since then... so 12 years in the water. Other than basic sailboat stuff, chainplates, bulkheads, leaks in the topside ...
14 posts · Joined 2016. #1 · Jun 16, 2016. Well, I recently had my offer accepted for a 78' S2 9.2A. Needless to say I am elated and can't wait to get out on the water in the boat. I will be launching it in about two weeks and keeping it on a mooring near my house. It's in pretty good shape. The top deck forward of the cockpit was re-done in ...
SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more! ... In reviewing the vast array of different sailboats, the S2 9.2C or 11C has caught my attention, primarily because of the cabin layout. The 9.2C (30') has ...
Images: 241. "S2" marketed the 27 footer (26'-7" LOA) as a "Performance Cruiser", of which they built 85 examples from 1985 to 1987, when Sailboat production was ended. All S2 cruising sailboats, including the 27', featured a solid fiberglass hull, and a balsa cored deck.
Join Date: Sep 2016. Location: Oregon. Boat: Chrysler 26, swing keel. Posts: 130. S2 11 (36') Center cockpit. Hello to all! Absolutely love this website! Have learned and shared a lot here. I previously started a thread in this forum regarding the S2 9.2 center cockpit with both my wife and I thinking this would be our next boat.
The 9.2 stands for 9.2 meters, as with the company's other boats (7.3, 7.9, 10.3, etc.). S2 stuck with the classification for a long time, only advertising the 9.2 as the S2 30 after it had been in production for years (not to be confused with the later S2 30 designed by Graham & Schlageter). The boat overall is 29′ 11″, the most common ...
I have recently purchased a 1980 S2 7.3 (24 ft). See attached. The boat has been sitting idle for about 2 years, is in good shape, but needs some updating that I plan on undertaking. The web is pretty ... General Sailing Forum: 7: 04-09-2012 12:07: Hunter 340 Sailboat 1986 Versus 1975 Pearson 35 Foot Sailboat: bubuin2000: Monohull Sailboats: 0:
S2 7.9 - Practical Sailor. Since 1974, Practical Sailor's independent testing has taken the guesswork out of boat and gear buying. www.practical-sailor.com. The association reports 400 were built. Designed to be a one class racing boat.
S2 7.3 for Sail. Excellent boat for coastal cruising, day sailing and racing! S2 Yachts has a great reputation for making solid, safe and fast sailboats. The 7.3 is a 24-foot "cruising" model with a large cockpit, numerous big-boat features and a comfortable cabin that sleeps four. "Sweet Freedom" is a well-engineered boat with a roller-furling ...
Sailing the S2 9.2 is a treat. In 15 to 17 knots, it heels sharply under the mainsail and 150-percent genoa before settling in to make 5 or 6 knots upwind. Weather helm is noticeable in stronger gusts, but the boat is generally well balanced and always manageable, even in lumpy seas. All in all, the S2 9.2 is a well-designed, tough, and able 30 ...
World's leading forum for owners of popular production sailboats. Menu Menu. Log in. Register. Sidebar Sidebar. Menu Home. Forums. ... S2 New. 1.2K Threads 7.7K Messages. 1.2K Threads 7.7K Messages. T. S2 9.2 Owners Manual and Ships Log 1980. Yesterday at 1:00 PM;
If the OMC needs major repair, I'm changing to electric Saildrive power. I really like the lay out of the S2, with just updating the interior cushions with ultra leather and ultra suede, (vinyl & micro fiber) she will look more modern. My husband and I just purchased a 77 S2 8.0 B Sloop and are very happy.
Sailing performance and styling were improved, and the second wave of S2 sailboats helped people forget the ugly ducklings. The Slikkers story continued. The "third wave" was a successful foray into high-performance boats, with the Graham & Schlagater-designed Grand Slam series—7.9 meter, 9.3, and 10.1. (The 7.9 was twice MORC National ...
The 7.9 was a pricey boat for her size. Equipped with sail handling gear, four sails (main, jib, genoa, and spinnaker), outboard motor, speedo, and compass, her 1985 price was about $27,000. For comparison, a comparably equipped J/24 of the time would run you around $21,000, an Olson 25 about $22,000.
S2 Yachts (USA) The company, located in Holland, Michigan, USA, was founded by boating industry legend, Leon Slikkers, after he had sold his powerboat company, Slickcraft. As part of the sales agreement, he was precluded from the powerboat market for a number of years. There were no restrictions on sailboat building.
SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, ... She's a solid boat and sails decent. S2's are generally made well and I think the 11.0 would be a step up in build quality compared to your P35. The interior woodwork is quite ...
88. S2 9.2A Seattle, WA. Jan 14, 2008. #8. Portlight. S2 9.2A Ports u000bI replaced the ports in my S2 9.2A with 1/4" Bronze Tinted Plexiglas. I was told that Plexiglas was more resistant to crazing than Lexan. The S2 site says to use sealant to bed the windows, but I used Glazer's Tape instead.
Re: S2 9.2 Center Cockpit. You might also look at the Sovereign 28 (aka Sovereign 30). It was made from the S2 by adding 2 feet to the mold. I finished one from bare hull about 25 years ago. 8'4" beam, 3'4" draft, 6800 lbs, 6' headroom in main cabin, 20 HP yanmar 2gm20 and fairly trailable.
S2 preowned sailboats for sale by owner. S2 used sailboats for sale by owner.
The 9.2''s don''t sail all that well but there are far worse sailing boats out there. Of the two versions the 9.2 A (aft cockpit appears to sail better and appears to offer a more comfortable motion than the 9.2 C). My experience with S2''s is somewhat different than Paul''s. S2''s seem to have a disproportionately large number of deck core ...